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feathers
January 6th, 2004, 01:59 PM
I'm back! If you didn't know I was gone, that's okay... I think the only person I ended up telling was Reece, and that was the night before departure. I tripped out to KDTW from KLAX (via KORD... can you guess what airline I was on?) to visit a close friend of mine.

I don't think I will ever fly out of KLAX again! What a pain! I got there (on Christmas) and all the parking lots were full. I had to park in the Crowne Pointe hotel structure (they accept airport parkers) and even then, they were specially extending airport parks down to the second and third floors (normally 4 through 7). I do wish I had a camera, though. Two different approaches in to the 24s had the aircraft carrying their own little clouds over the wings (it was cold and raining that day) and sometimes trailing a streamer back to the tail. It was a wild sight to see. ^_^

Then I got there and got stuck behind someone who's iten was too special for the eCheck machines... getting my checked baggage screened was about the most painless part of the whole process. Got my ID verified, then was routed to the 3-mile line for the screening checkpoint. Had to take my shoes off, surrender my butane lighter (forgot it was on me...) and the TSA pitbulls went right for my AM/FM/SW/AIR radio in my carry on. I had a cell phone, a CD player and a gameboy with external battery pack, but they went right for the radio.

You know, I love how I have to open my backpack, but then keep my hands off once it's open. And then once the TSA decides every is cool, I get to repack my backpack. Ah well...

I made it before the door closed (hitting my head on the top of the door, naturally) and found out United is smart... they have this soothing music on every channel and are showing pictures of landscapes and waterfalls... Man, I wanted to stay mad! But I eventually surrendered to the serenity.

I can get long winded, so I'll just do a highligh reel as it applies to ATC. Gentlemen, between Xavius' ATCC, you guys and the classes I've taken (so far) at Mt. SAC, this was a truly unique experience. For the first time I not only understood what ATC was telling us to do, I understood why. The 5000' climbout, cleared to 13,000, then to FL230, then to cruise. I get it now. ^_^

Outbound Leg 1 - KLAX to KORD (B767-300/ER)

Not much. Was raining steadily at KLAX. Found out ground control has a sense of humor. I heard the following two calls (some taxi instructions made up when it doesn't matter):

Pilot: "Ground, United 123"
Ground: "Yes?"

and

Ground: "Okay, give way to company traffic left to right, then taxi Bravo to 24L"
Pilot: "Hey, I can do that! Bravo to 24L, United 542"

I also heard a strange call. We were monitoring tower as we finished up our taxi and I hear "Northwest 983 at gate" and the tower says "Roger, proceed". It took me about 10 seconds to realize they were talking about GAATE, not an aircraft at the gate.

We took off into the overcast, but around 3,000 we busted out of it into bright blue skies. A perfect day for SVFR! Well, if it was allowed at KLAX, I suppose...

Flight was pretty uneventful. Listened to an approach controller get a little peeved at someone who wasn't responding... he kept saying, "Delta 989, proceed direct Bradford, Bradford three." I think the pilot actually acknowledged after the third call but the controller may have missed it and said, "For the fourth time, Delta 989, proceed direct Bradford, Bradford 3." Is that staying professional?

Landing was uneventful (no penalty box!) and my connection was two gates away.

Outbound Leg 2 - KORD to KDTW (B737-200[?])

Not much here, except I'm under the impression that O'Hare Approach/Departure is a walk in the park compared to O'Hare Ground! The guy never stopped talking, it was full-on no-readbacks-please stream of controlling. But you could totally tell this guy was lovin' his job. He had energy and just sounded like he was enjoying every minute of it. Someone got their taxi instructions stepped on and managed to break in. After the controller pleaded for the a/c to hold on just one more minute and rattled off another instruction, he asked what he could do for the a/c. Thet said they needed their instructions again and ground says "Okay, let's get you out of there..."

Then a few calls later, trying to locate a Wisconsin Air flight...

Ground: "Wisconsin 544, flash your lights for me!"
Ground: "Wisconsin 544, where are you?"
Pilot: "We're at , Wisconsin 544"
Ground: "You are fantastic! Taxi to..."

Got to monitor Clearance Delivery while I was waiting in the terminal. Now, I dunno which delivery I was listening to (assuming there are more than one) but everyone got the O'Hare1 DP, which is nothing more than vectors to your transition point. Heck, I could do that job! She also got a call from "Panther 606". It confused her (and me) and she had to ask the operating initals, which were Foxtrot Alpha Oscar. She found the strip and gave them their clearance, then...

Clearance: "How'd they get 'Panther' out of 'FAO'?"
Pilot: "Ah, we're a Florida based airline and we [I assume he means a pro sports team] are the Panthers. I guess everything else was taken."

Our own pilot had a little lapse of memory when coming in to KDTW, I swear I am not making this up. We got instructions from approach, and...

Pilot: "Turn right heading 090, United... uh... who are we again?"

Also had a similar mix-up as back in KLAX. I think it was going in to KDTW (maybe it was in to KORD, but I don't think it was) I keep hearing instructions like "Contact tower at will" and I'm thinking, "Cool, like contact tower when you want". Until I heard "Cross will at [whatever]" and realized it was an intersection, probably WIILL. Do out-of-town pilots ever have trouble with things like GAATE and WIILL? Or even BRIJJ for that matter?

Ground was quiet, the snow sparkled... life was good.

Return Leg 1 - KDTW to KORD (A320)

The theme for this leg was definitely 'It never pays to be early'. Well, actually, it started with me. I misread my boarding pass and through the plane left at 19:10, but actually it was [i]boarding at 19:10 and leaving at 19:40, so I got to the gate waaaaay early. I chilled, had some carrots and listened to tower and ground. I also stopped to wonder if a guy with headphones and a radio in his lap made anyone else nervous in the gate area. Which reminds me, the KDTW security force had no issues with my backpack. They let it go right through. Go figure.

We pushed from the gate early and on the way to the runway, tower tells us they had us sequenced for 19:41. So guess what? We get to pull off and wait for a Saab that was behind us (that would have been in front of us had we pushed on time). So much for pushing early!

The flight was almost uneventful. As we were climbing out, tower told us to switch and the pilot switch and made his inital call and there was nothing but silence for reply. He called again, no answer. I heard him go back to the tower freqency and then... the flight attendant got on the PA system to welcome us to our flight. You know you're an ATC nut when you mentally scream 'Shut up! Shut up! Just shut up!' when someone is using the PA because you want to get back to listening to the air traffic. Needless to say, any trouble there had been was sorted out by the time the annoucements were done. Foo.

We landed at KORD early and... naturally our assigned gate isn't clear yet. Penalty Box! I was quite impressed with our pilot's jockying skills... he actually backed the plane into position in the box with the thrust reversers! So we sat in the box for about 15 minutes and I listened to the ground controller slowly lose his mind. It started with someone getting off the runway at the wrong taxiway and kinda stayed bad. But this guy sounded like he'd been on the shift too long and was ready for a break. Notable exchange of the night:

Ground: [rattles off instructions involving about 5 taxiways]
Pilot: "Uhhh... sorry we were having a conversation here in the cockpit. You'll have to repeat that."
Ground: "Are you ready to listen to me now?"
Pilot: "Yes, we were just trying to avoid hitting another aircraft."

Short fuses all around! And a little bit of sarcasm, too from ground...

Pilot: "This is Northwest 283, our gate is still occupied so we'll have to loop around."
Ground: "What a surprise. Bravo 10, Bravo and around."

This time I had an hour to kill in the concourse. I had some dinner (no dining on the flight this time, as if the turkey bun they gave us on the way out was a meal) and then sat listening again. But I do have to wonder... if you saw a tall guy in a yellow parka with a yellow backpack, headphones on and an antenna sticking out of the backpack (along with the head of a stuffed Stitch plush) walking around the concourse, would you be worried?

Return Leg 2 - KORD to KLAX (A320... no, not the same one)

Actually, almost uneventful except for the nearly constant turbulance. Ground control was in good form once again, and I figured out (or think I did) what "Metering" is... when in KORD on the way out, the pilot was monitoring "Metering". Aircraft would call up, and metering would just say "Monitor xxx.xxx" and the aircraft would confirm. Then I figured it out on the way back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ground control at O'Hare is soooo busy that it's nearly impossible to break in on the actual frequency. So you call up metering, they tell you what frequency to monitor and then pop you onto ground's list. I figure that's gotta be it because you swing over to monitor your assigned ground freqency and three calls later, it's your number and instructions.

Like I said, uneventful flight, but en-route was kinda busy with a lot of altitude change requests and queries about the ride at certain levels. Somewhere in the first ZLA sector (out of ZAB) we got cleared direct CIVET, direct LAX, but they put us on the CIVET4 before we got that far. Now that I know CIVET hovers around KONT, I started trying to figure out where I was as we came in. Sure enough, I picked up on the interstate 10 and watched as we overflew KONT. The most amazing thing? The Ontario Mills Mall from the air. That thing is huge! And the parking lot is even bigger! Far and away the largest thing (almost rivaling the airport itself) in the area.

Much to my surprise, we were on tower frequency way out, and we got our clearance to land as we were abeam of downtown LA. That's still a while out, like at least 20 miles. Maybe it's closer than I think. Before long, we were flying over the parking lots, roared over Sepulveda Boulevard and we were down on the ground.

And that's all there is, really. Oh, except one more question. A while ago, I looked over the ILS plates for KLAX (on laartcc.org) and is it me, or does the localizer for 25L (on the CIVET4 arrival) extend all the way out to CIVET and beyond? I mean, that's like easily 50 miles! I am to believe the aircraft in to KLAX as I watch them fly high over KONT are already lined up for 25L and on the loc?

That's all. Good to be back, probably be back on the scopes in the next few days. Gotta start working on my APP training again. ^_^

James

Scott Fritz
January 6th, 2004, 02:09 PM
James, if I am not mistaken the O'Hare One is the only SID out of O'Hare. Rob please correct me if I am wrong on this. I have only flown out of O'Hare a couple times on VATSIM.

bradl
January 6th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Heya, James.

To answer your question, being in ZLA and visiting ZOA, the 25L LOC basically is picked up about 2 miles W of FUELR, but once you join the arrival at CIVET, it's basically a straight in approach all the way. So in this case, you won't exactly hear PTAC for this approach, since you're on it from the moment the arrival begins. you'll likely hear "After CIVET, cleared ILS 25L approach". That way, ATc will only have to control your airspeed, while the pilot does his own descending via the arrival. More than likely, later on in the arrival, he'll have traffic to follow (assuming the field is VFR), and be cleared the visual approach. But For the CIVET4 to the 25s, and the MITTS1 to the 24s, you'll have a straight in approach (for the 24s, you'll turn to a 260 heading to join the 24R LOC), then straight shot all the way in.

SF, you're right about the departure as well. Robert Dofflemeyer (Good friend/drinking buddy of AB) works at C90 TRACON, and when he works departure, that's all he gets. Everything in and out of that airport is vectors, because of how much traffic that comes in.

BL.

ZOA.Rich
January 6th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Hey there, good to have you back.

The O'Hare One Departure is standard and it is basically ORD1.XXX or ORD1.XXXX for a fix... Eastbound you'll hit EON(Peotone) or GIJ(Gipper) etc... They are radar vectors and not really called a SID with a transition.

The "WILL" you were hearing is actually WILLT - it is an OM for the ILS RWY 27L approach... O'Hare is definitely no walk in the park... Approach is a constant stream of words, never ending... It is a wonder how the various approach sectors keep everyone in a line and not vertically running into each other. I guess you get into a flow.

It is amazing to arrive early at O'Hare - generally everything coming in is on a groundstop at the departing airport. Seems that just a little bit of rain or snow in the air - or if the weather even sneezes towards O'Hare airport, the whole thing goes into a downward spiral... Seems they just can't get it right with weather... Darndest thing I've ever seen. :-)

~Rich

Rob Jarrock
January 7th, 2004, 10:04 AM
Dang, Rich beat me to it.

Yea there is only the one departure out of ohare called the "ohare one departure" it is not a transition but a vector departure.

feathers
January 7th, 2004, 04:10 PM
Thanks for all the followup information, guys. It helps me sort things out better.

Brad: I knew you'd be able to answer my questions 'bout our local big-time airport down here. I just didn't want to pick you out of the crowd. I guess my only question now has to do with the CIVET4 plate (as seen on laartcc.org). Am I mistaken that the symbol that's half shaded coming out from the runway represents the localizer? If so, why does it extend to CIVET and beyond if you can't pick it up until just west of FUELR?

To everyone else, I figured there was only one DP from O'Hare, but I wanted to make sure. O'Hare departure must be one of those sectors portrayed on TV, with the high-stress controller trying to keep everybody from running into one another. I have no doubt STARs and DPs make life a whole lot easier!

Finally, I also know all about the mayhem and trouble that crops up at KORD. I have fond (ha) memories of being delayed out of KLAX or KSFO, and even one time our 08:10 flight from KSFO to KORD was downright cancelled and we had to join up with the 08:50 or something like that. It sucked hardcore because the 08:10 had nobody on board and the 08:50 was standing room only, so my friend and I (when he worked for United and we were flying standby) didn't even get to sit next to one another, it was so packed.

Thanks again for the replies. Maybe next time (if I ever forgive the TSA and there is actually a next time) I'll bring facility maps too, for when I'm listening to ground control. I'm just afraid security will really want to talk to me then. I was nervous enough carrying around a radio and a sheet of frequencies for the airports!

James

bradl
January 7th, 2004, 05:16 PM
No problem at all, James.

Here's what happens with the CIVET4 arrival.
Basically, at CIVET, you are joining the 25L localizer. That's I-LAX at 109.9, 069 radial inbound. For the full ILS approach, though, you'd need the 249 degree heading, otherwise, you'll be backcourse 6L localizer. But the chart is stating that for the entire time down from CIVET, you're on the LOC. But a plane's equipment won't pick up the localizer or glideslope from that far out, so you'll be descending via the profiled descent down until when the equipment can pick up the localizer, which is about 25 - 30nm out, which puts it right at FUELR, at the max. So shortly west of FUELR, you'll have the LOC. another 5nm, you'll have the glideslope.

Now, what I'd like to see, is if SFO were to use some RNAV or profiled descents into the area. Granted, you have 3 major airports that can be served, but I could see a profiled descent equivalent to the PYE1, but my guess is that NCT doesn't want to mess with status quo.

BL.

ielchitz
January 8th, 2004, 12:04 AM
If I am not mistaken in the REAL WORLD you can pick up the ILAX Localiser from CIVET (and beyond). However in FS the Localiser only goes out about 30nm.

Mike Evans and I tried messing with the BGL's over a year ago to see if we could extend it out to CIVET but came up dry. Perhaps with the new AFCAD type programs someone could figure it out.

Alex Bower
January 8th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Robert Dofflemyer, absolutely NEVER EVER control, or fly while drinking..........................







....................anything less than a sixpack.

AB