initial altitude for KOAK dep

[Peregrino]

Hello,

Had some traffic dep KSFO and KOAK that resulted in
a closer look at KOAK departures. Perhaps the initial altitude
for KOAK dep should be 2000? See SKYL3 DP, which shows
at or below 2000 till 4NM out.

Ric

[Dan Sprouse]

Ric

I am not speaking for all of the staff but my own oppenion. I say we keep the 5000ft. Departure.

If a pilot is Departing Oakland on one of several of the departures he is restricted via the Departures to 2000fT and 4 miles. Once he has passed this he can climb to 5000.

Now you can tell them if you feel they may not be clear on this restriction climb and maintain 5000 after the 4 mile departure restriction.

The reason I say we should keep the 5000 is if your working tower and release them and they are restricted to 2000 many of them are far past the 4 miles before they call Departure and if they are held at 2000 they will be way too low by the time they call.

Again this is my thinking on this subject.

[feathers]

I think something needs to be done, even if it is tell them 2000 for 4 miles. A UPS out of KOAK (SKYL3) got pretty close to Reece tonight (he was north out of KSFO on the CUIT2, I think) and doubly-bad, through some mixup, the UPS never really got in touch with me...

I took a quick gander and all the DPs that cross the line of the KSFO 1s (which is the majority of them, methinks) have this 2000-to-4-miles restriction. Even after 4 miles, they're still only recommended up to 3000 as APC vectors them around the turn (if I read the chart correctly?).

I understand them staying at 2000 for too long. That happened to me exactly once we tried a SKYL3 out at 2000. But I think something should be resolved about this. Things got less than 1800 feet separated and I chewed up some fingernails.

James

[nobody291]

In my RW experience operating out of SFO, use of the Quiet 2 is rare...perhaps this is why? When using 1L/R, all north/eastbound departures are normally on the SFO8 which has the at or above 3000' restriction to compliment the at/below 2000' on the OAK DPs. Maybe add something to the SOP about the potential for conflict between the Cuit2 and most OAK DPs?

[Stephen Zedalis]

This is what is in the Bay DPs section of the S1 training section regarding the Silent Departure out of KOAK...

"This departure provides a wonderful view of the Bay, and also provides the controller running departure with some fun, especially when the QUIET departures are launching at the same time off of runway 1 in KSFO. "

I like the following graphic off the FAA site that we have links to:

http://www2.faa.gov/ats/oakaifss/Airport%2.../BAY%20West.gif (http://www2.faa.gov/ats/oakaifss/Airport%20Charts/BAY%20West.gif)

[Doug Pullen]

Until it is discussed by staff on using the 2000ft skly3, lets have better coordination btwn sfo and oakland deps. if both towers on, they need to communicate on departs. If appr/depart/center is online its his responsibility to control departs. Again, comms btwn stations.

[bradl]

This is a bit offtopic, but what the hell. :)

Is there some sort of VFR transition corridor in the bay, from say, Vallejo or Sausalito down to San Jose? If so, what would those altitudes be, and (if possible) would they conflict with any of the initial climbouts of departures from SFO, OAK, or SJC?

BL.

[Inigo Markle-Allen]

First off, everyone, all these restrictions on these DPs are there so that Norcal CAN handle simultanious departures from SFO and OAK. Look at the SFO 8 departure for everyone heading North & East: Over the oakland rwy 11 numbers already at 3000 = No conflict. The initial altitude restriction at 4 dme on the PORTE3 is to keep departures off of 1L and 1R (believe it or not everything up to 737s/757s depart 1L quite frequently, and 1L/R are the most commonly used runways for departures) above the Oakland rwy 29 departures climbing "Restricted" to at or below 2000 until OAK 4 dme, when they're allowed to keep climbing. The thing about the Skyline 3 departure is that they NEED a vector to the PYE 135 radial before they can resume own navigation, and this actually serves a purpose other than to inconvinience you as a departure controller: It means you can make them WAIT on runway heading or vector them northwest bound so they don't conflict with SFO departures on the PORTE3, then when there's adequate spacing they're vectored onto the PYE r-135 and resume own navigation. Once this happens, the Southwest bound departures from SFO and OAK are essentially one stream (same fixes from there on, they're essentially the same departure, just the buisier airport (SFO) takes priority with pilot nav departures).
Obviously towers should be responsible with their departure releases, but sequencing everyone IS departures job, not just watching a bunch of pilot nav departures, so let's look at how the real guys do it. Keep in mind real world pilots contact departure at anywhere from 500-1000 feet, well before the 2000 foot climb restriction.

So the pilot had got an initial altitude of 5000 from clearance delivery at oakland, he's now just climbing on the Skyline 3 and switches to departure, the Richmond sector on 120.9. Now the pilot will usually say something like "Norcal departure Southwest 301's climbing through 800 for 5000 with the restrictions." - This is referring to that 2000 ft limit until 4 dme, when the pilot continues his climb to 5000 (a lot of southwest pilots just make a shallow climb so they hit 2000 at 4 dme anyway, which is cool and bypasses the need for all the following). The controller will usually say something like:

"Southwest 301 radar contact 900, cancel restrictions climb maintain 15000." (takes away the 2000 ft limit) then somewhere past 4 dme goes:

"Southwest 301 turn left heading 200 join the Point Reyes 135 radial resume own navigation"

So cool, that covers it, what if there's someone climbing off 1L on the Porte3 at 2000 right when he checks in? It's easy...

"SWA301 maintain 2000, traffic 11 o'clock 4 miles an airbus climbing through 2100." he could report "In sight" and then simply be told to "Maintain visual seperation." Even if not, the SKYL3 departure is altitude restricted at 2000 so theres no chance of an operational error anyway because they'll be 1000 feet apart! Then it's just a matter of waiting to turn him so there will be at least 3-5 miles between the two airplanes, and waiting to climb them until they're 3 miles apart so you don't get a Deal. Ahh, the wonderful world of sequencing. When worked by a pro though, the rate of departures from SFO and OAK are more or less irrelivant because the DPs are structured so well (but this only works when the pilots know what they're doing).

On to Brad's question!

VFR airplanes coming from the north bay to the south and vise versa don't get any special corridor like the SFRA or specific routes per say, but from my experience approach mostly utilizes Highway 280 for southbound VFR aircraft, and highway 101 or "The Bayshore Freeway" for northbound VFR aircraft, although it differs case by case (this probably helps with noise abatement at night too). But it's not uncommon to hear something like:

"N6527R cleared into the class Bravo via follow highway 280 southbound, maintain VFR at or below 2500."

I think my favorite though was a time I heard a VFR guy going from PAO to OAK, followed 101 north into the SFO class B surface area, and got instructed by tower to cross over the midfield runway intersections at or above 1500, then continued across the bay. That guy must have gotten a great view.

Questions, comments, corrections - Feel free. My personal stance on the issue is to keep the initial altitude realistic (you guys act like we never had all those massively successful CalScreams with hundreds of airplanes and faced no problems, why change it now?), and instead focus on making an effort on this site to educate our pilots on their personal responsibility of following the restrictions on the procedure that they filed (not to mention call departure earlier so things don't get so out of hand like that). My $0.02.

Hope that cleared up some things,

[feathers]

I think Inigo brings it all into focus (as usual)...


When worked by a pro though, the rate of departures from SFO and OAK are more or less irrelivant because the DPs are structured so well (but this only works when the pilots know what they're doing).

The line that jumped out at me is the last one, specifically the part in parens. As we've been cautioned in our course syllabi, we can't always count on the pilots on VATSIM knowing what they're doing or knowing all the routines and procedures. Definitely the majority of them are extremely knowledgeable and professional, no doubt about it.

Here's my take (or perhaps multiple takes) after a little more thought. First, could there be a way to work the restriction (or a reminder thereof) into the clearance delivery? "Maintain 2000 until 4 DME, thereafter maintain 5000, expect FL290..." or something like that? Surely if the pilot filed the departure, they should have the plate. And if they have the plate, they can see on it where it has the 2000' restriction. And even if they can't see it, they can read it in the description where it says (as I point out later in this post) 'Cross a point 4 miles northwest of the OAK VORTAC at or below 2000'... but perhaps a gentle reminder is in order?

Another thing that occured to me... because you realize I have zee-ro experience flying on the simulator side of this. Yes, I'm too cheap to shell for a copy of MSFS at the moment. Besides, my flight-stick setup is downtimed due to a balky soundcard gameport. Anyway, I get the impression that comm frequencies are picked through SB (or an SB panel on your flight deck). Naturally I assume the reason delivery gives out the departure frequency up front is so the pilot can dial it into their alternate channel and then amidst the controlled chaos of takeoff, when tower says to contact departure, they just reach over and punch the 'swap' button and they're on with departure.

Does it work the same way in SB? I have a feeling it doesn't... that when told to switch to departure the pilot has to go menu-hunting and pick the correct frequency from a list, and then RW has to make the reconnection. This can account for a lot of delays, no doubt. Which makes me think that tower should hand off departures with as little delay as possible. As it says somewhere (I think in the syllabi?), as soon as the aircraft shows a positive rate of climb, get them to departure. If you can start the handoff when they're at 300 feet AGL, all the better.

Which brings me around to a grand idea (grand in my own mind, naturally): The next time it's ZOA spotlight time, how about a joint controller/pilot education session? "Bay-Area Basketweave" (because as the picture Stephen brought up shows, the bay area STARs and DPs are woven together so well). The idea is to invite any and all pilots interested in flying out of KSFO or KOAK for other parts. Obviously we won't discourage departures from other airports, but focus on KSFO and KOAK. The goal: get as many 'conflicting' departures as possible.

The pilots check in with a coordinator working as an FSS (a very underused position, but I can understand why) and the coordinator just goes over the DP with the pilot and makes sure they understand how it flies. I suppose this step could be optional, but if you don't check in and proceed to screw up the DP, you are gonna get it from the controllers. ^_^ After the check-in and check-out, the pilots are free to hit it. Get their clearance, taxi out and take off.

In the meantime, any controller who wants to practice or drill or just slowly lose their mind (as I am oft finding myself doing) gets to work APC_APP in a round-robin fashion. Depending on traffic, maybe in 20 or 30 minute shifts before rotation. Other controllers waiting get to staff the other sectors of NorCal and beyond. So not only do the pilots get to work on getting used to restrictions out of KOAK, but APC_APP gets to drill on the vector part of SKYL3, COAST5 and NUEVO5. With (hopefully) a good amount of traffic departing KSFO at the same time, there is much practicing of vectoring for spacing and joining of the PYE-135 radial (or the PYE-151 for COAST5, an important distinction that made me double-take the first time I did it).

Looking over the discriptions of the COAST5 and SKYL3, it says 'Maintain runway heading for vector to the PYE-135 [or PYE-151] radial. Cross a point 4 miles northwest of the OAK VORTAC at or below 2000'. It says it right there, the plates have always been available on our website (and my ATIS advertises this fact) so ignorance is no excuse! ^_^

All right, I think I've ranted myself out for the time being. Curious to know what you think of that for a ZOA spotlight event (maybe not the next, but in the future sometime). And as always, I'm still just an ATC trainee, so any corrections and adjustments to what I've said are always welcome.

By the by, Stephen thanks for bringing that picture back up. Someone posted a 'How ATC works' link and it had links to that picture and its cousin (http://www2.faa.gov/ats/oakaifss/Airport%20Charts/BAY%20East.gif) and I think they're absolutely amazing. Truly Scott (I believe it was Scott?) was correct when he mused that the guys who drew up all the STARs and DPs for the bay area were geniuses.

Peace.

James

[Inigo Markle-Allen]

Hey James,

My pleasure B) . I've always held the position that the guys who invented the airspace were geniuses as well. I really like the event idea... what better way to teach new APP controllers how and WHY the departures work (This should be DEP 101 stuff: People are much more likely to get really good at this position if they know WHY the procedures they're using are there), and renew pilot interest in this ARTCC in the process?

Also James, nice catch with the PYE-151 on the Coast 5 and don't worry, that's correct. It's a completely different procedure utilizing VORs along the Coast (FLW, RZS, GVO and SXC) vs. the Skyline 3 and PORTE 3 departures which head to inland VORs like Avenal, Panoche, Clovis and Gorman (FLW is on there too, probably for potential airspace congestion reasons, so they can alternate the DPs if traffic got that bad for some reason. Oakland does this with the PXN2 and MARVN1 arrivals (which just detours them and merges them with the MADWN4s), I've flown the latter a few times on SWA).

But, remember the comparison I made with the PORTE and SKYL 3 departures? Remember how they're the same procedure once the aircraft is established on the PYE outbound radial, just with SFO departures getting there by pilot nav, and Oakland departures getting there by a vector from Norcal departure? The same is true for the Coast 5. B) Yank out the Offshore 5 departure. Exact same stream of airplanes as the Coast 5 once they're both established on the 151 radial.

Cool huh?

[Rich1997]

Originally posted by feathers@Feb 14 2004, 01:43 PM
could there be a way to work the restriction (or a reminder thereof) into the clearance delivery? "Maintain 2000 until 4 DME, thereafter maintain 5000, expect FL290..."
I was thinking the same thing about issuing a reminder in the Clearence Delivery. I am a VERY new pilot myself, and as a controlling I understand how DPs work but still need help sometimes.

I get the impression that comm frequencies are picked through SB (or an SB panel on your flight deck). Naturally I assume the reason delivery gives out the departure frequency up front is so the pilot can dial it into their alternate channel and then amidst the controlled chaos of takeoff, when tower says to contact departure, they just reach over and punch the 'swap' button and they're on with departure.

Does it work the same way in SB? I have a feeling it doesn't... that when told to switch to departure the pilot has to go menu-hunting and pick the correct frequency from a list, and then RW has to make the reconnection. This can account for a lot of delays,
This is true although if you get AVC Tuner you can just dial it in and hit swap like you said. I LOVE that program. (Address in another post on main topic list) but Tower should send to Deptarure as soon as possible.

[Doug Pullen]

As to the init alt, depends on the SID. If its the skly3 then 2000 at 4dme is appriate.