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feathers
April 2nd, 2004, 05:35 PM
Hi gents... I know I've been a little spotty lately, both on the scopes and in the forums. I'll save the excuses for when I really need them. ^_^

Today, SATCA (the ATC club at Mt. SAC) went for a tower tour at Lindburgh field in San Diego. For those who are unfamiliar, it's a single runway (9/27) approximately 9000 feet long with a single full-length taxiway. Talk about your challenges! Just to make life even more fun, it's a LOC/DME apporach on 27 due to terrain (which includes the city of San D itself). The workers there said an unobstructed glidescope path would have to be over 4 degrees downslope... a little hairy in an aircraft! There is a rather lengthy displaced threshold on 27 as well due to 'terrain'.

The view from the cab was fantastic (although it was a bit hazy, we were told you can see clear into Mexico on a good day). It was downright cool to see approaching aircraft skimming over the buildings of downtown on their way in. Both ground and local have a BRITE and a ground surveilence radar set, complete with a runway occupation warning system. Crossing bars go up (on the display) when the runway is (or is about to be) occupied and if anyone puts a nose over the bar, a voice in the cab says 'Warning! Runway occupied! Go around!'

Pretty cool to watch the aircraft coming in on the BRITE, pick them up visually and then watch them 'tag up' on the ground radar (yes, the ground radar tags landings based on the BRITE). I was interested to see that the BRITE (at least the one at KSAN tower) is a relay of the ARTS information _only_: Just tags and target symbols, some dotted lines to show Class Bravo boundries and a list of inbounds at the lower right. It does not show the radar sweep or primary targets (I swear I've seen some that do).

Our cab tour group arrived just in time to hear clearance give one out and we were there when the strip printer spit out a new strip for him. They have the newer thermal strip printers, so they slide right out and get cut on the fly. Oddly enough, nobody uses strip-holders in the tower: They have felt pads that they lay the strips on to keep them from sliding around. There's also the 'Strip-O-Matic', a nice custom wood channel that allows DEL to shoot a strip over to GND with just a flick of the finger.

One thing I did notice is that the tower didn't have a new-style VSCS with touch screens, rather the old-school pushbutton system. I saw a call go out from the supervisor to confirm about a parachute jump, but none of the controllers made any calls to SoCal (KSAN has a 'silent release' agreement with SoCal). I would hazard the following, though: Perhaps override only works on the new VSCS equipment and between new VSCS systems (which most center and TRACON installs would have). At towers and FSSs, the old equipment may still use the interphone land-line system, requiring a call that needs to be answered on the other end. I will see if research on this idea leads anywhere. It may be the key to figuring out how tower and TRACON should interact on the G/G.

I would have asked someone in the know, but there was little time. Plus, it seems the mention of VATSIM still elicits ribbing and good-natured laughing from the SATCA members. I didn't want to step into that tarpit. At least, not yet. And yet, the guy from Van Nuys tower who came to speak to us on Monday was a VATSIMer and said it helped him quite a lot. In fact, he was trained on ZLA by a current class member (how's that for irony?).

Alas, our time up there was too short. I could have stayed all day and never gotten tired of it. The view, the aircraft... listening to the controllers, it was sweet. Luckily for me, I won't be away from the environment long. Next Friday, AIRT42 is taking a field-trip to KLAX tower. And I just found out today, that the Friday after next, SATCA is going to KONT tower, where the old radar equipment is still hooked up and active in the base of the tower. Rumor has it they're willing to open up the room and let us play with it... ^_^

Looks like my SATCA dues are finally starting to reap dividends. Reports forthcoming, if anyone is interested.

James

Keith Smith
April 3rd, 2004, 01:21 AM
James,

Fantastic report, keep 'em coming!

Keith

Doug Pullen
April 3rd, 2004, 07:33 AM
Yes, do keep em coming, makes for interesting knowledge to learn bout the RL atc.

Reece Hunter
April 5th, 2004, 08:09 PM
James,

Are you allowed to take pics? Did you get to talk to the controllers? Are they nice/act like normal people?

feathers
April 6th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Hey Reece.

At KSAN they allowed non-flash pictures, but I didn't bring a camera (d'oh!). I would have loved a shot of the signs at the enterances that say 'This is a federal aircraft control facility. Serious injury or loss of life can occur due to the interruption of these services.'

From what I'm hearing, no photos will be allowed inside the cab at KLAX (too many people before have had their flashes go off) but they're gonna let us out on the catwalk outside and photos can be taken from there. I'll see if I can get a camera for that, at least. No idea what the rules are at KONT, but hopefully more akin to KSAN. If so, I'll burn lots of pics.

Also, I'm seriously considering the KSAN chief's offer for any of us to come back and bring friends/family. If I give that a shot (probably after school is out) I'll be sure to burn a lot of photos.

As for the controllers, the ones at SAN seemed pretty relaxed and 'normal'. We didn't talk too much to the controllers (although in my ride up the elevator we rode with one who was going on duty). There were also two or three people there from SoCal and they seemed friendly and non-stressed (of course, when on the scope, it could be a totally different picture). The atmosphere in the cab was very relaxed. The airport wasn't jumpin', but they had a fairly steady stream of arrivals. Still, everyone was kinda kick-back and relaxed. They even had a stereo with a CD-multichanger attached, playing a local radio station just faintly in the background. Again, I'll be anxious to compare and contrast with KLAX.

Something to think about: The folks from SoCal said as cool as it was to move up the ladder into TRACON, most of the people there miss being in a tower where you have a nice view and there's daylight and you can see the actual airplanes you're controlling. It makes me think that I could be very happy at a somewhat-busy tower (I think KSAN was a level 10 or level 11) and never get around to TRACON. Or go do TRACON for a year just for kicks, then drop back to tower. Maybe.

Also, it dawned on me another VATSIM concession: That local, ground and delivery are all within 5 feet of each other, so having to override/interphone between those positions is something unique to VATSIM. To truly run a staffed tower on VATSIM, we should have three people at three computers all in the same room. ^_^

Not that we'd ever see it, but I'd love to see a 'Delivery/FDO' option for ASRC that does away totally with the sector (who needs it as delivery?) and lets you put up multiple flight strips and maybe even emulate the flight data computer system to let you enter and amend flight plans. Heck, maybe you could even have an external 'preferred routes' file so when you enter a flight plan as the pilot wants, the flight data system can laugh in your face (as the real one does) and tell the pilot how it should really be flown. ^_^

On the other hand, how many times do we have enough people staffing to get dedicated delivery service?

James

Rob Law
April 6th, 2004, 04:16 PM
James,

You make an interesting point about "climbing the ladder" from CD/GND/Tower to TRACON then presumably to Center.

I was under the impression that when you were accepted for ATC training, you either selected or were given what positions you would ultimately be able to staff.

Thus I thought that the highest ranked CD/Ground/Tower controler made the same amount as a top TRACON or CTR controller

Rob

feathers
April 6th, 2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by roblaw94588@Apr 6 2004, 03:16 PM
James,

You make an interesting point about "climbing the ladder" from CD/GND/Tower to TRACON then presumably to Center.

I was under the impression that when you were accepted for ATC training, you either selected or were given what positions you would ultimately be able to staff.

Thus I thought that the highest ranked CD/Ground/Tower controler made the same amount as a top TRACON or CTR controller

Rob
Rob, I'm not 100% sure how advancement works, but here's what I know so far.

I know for sure there is a definite division between Local/TRACON and Center. You make that decision early on and they are two different training programs at the academy. If you pick Center, you will most likely never work a tower or TRACON, partly because your on-the-job training lasts nearly five years! That's five years at the Center before you can get checked out and start working on your own.

What I've heard recently is now the FAA is training Local controllers for tower operations and then if you want, after you get some seniority, you can come back and do the radar program and go to work at a TRACON. I guess in times gone by (and when money was more readily available) the training for Local controllers also included radar, even though chances are you would start at a tower before going to TRACON.

The exception I heard (I treat this with rumor status) is that in ZNY, incoming greenhorns would be given the chance to start in a TRACON. If they made it through this trail by fire, then more power to them. However, washouts would be moved back to a tower position and not given the chance to work TRACON again in their career. Mind you, it's only something I heard in passing.

So I get the feeling you can move up from Tower to TRACON, but you can't jump the gap from there to Center, nor can Center workers move down to TRACON or Tower.

As for the pay scale... don't know much about that (plus it's being revamped even as we speak), but I'm sure working at some of the busiest towers is comparable to a lot of TRACON work in terms of stress and effort. Heck, even ground at some airports can be a nerve-fraying experience, depending on the traffic and airport layout. It's a good thing that KORD ground isn't paid by the word... those guys would be millionaires! ^_^

James

nobody291
April 7th, 2004, 08:48 AM
FWIW, I was up in Houston (IAH) tower last week...it was pretty cool to watch. I mostly talked with the supe on duty, he said a couple of things germane to this thread. First, the folks who worked in the tower only worked tower, never radar (although you can apply for a transfer and stand a good chance of getting it). The exception was the supes...they are "switch-hitters" and can go back and forth as sort of a manpower balancing tool. This is different than some smaller towers where the controllers are dual qualified and sometimes the approach control position is actually in the tower cab. Like James said, once you select tower or center at the beginning of your ATC career, it's next to impossible to switch (due to lengthy training times both ways).

bradl
April 7th, 2004, 11:36 AM
This is an interesting thread. Moreso, because last year, both ZOA and ZNY Centers were so strapped for controllers, they were hiring people off the streets and training them. Now that I'm also working in the NorCal area, this would have been a good opportunity for me. But I was in Vegas at the time, and I didn't want to move to Palmdale to get the equivalent at ZLA. I am not sure if those openings are still open or not.

Question for you who have visited towers before. A couple guys plus myself were due to visit Las Vegas Tower on 9/14/01, which didn't happen for obvious reasons. But one thing that we were looking forward to was that KLAS is a radar certified tower. Is KSAN or KIAH radar certified as well?

And another question for upcoming students: what is the difference between rader certified and nonradar certified towers?

BL.

Rob Law
April 7th, 2004, 01:09 PM
BL,

I'm almost sure that KSAN is radar certified. I remember when the atc feed from there was up I heard them (well I'll leave the rest of the sentence for one of the students to answer :ph34r: )

nobody291
April 7th, 2004, 02:44 PM
Houston Tower is a "limited approach control" (at least I think that's the term)...they owned the airspace w/in 8 miles at/below 4000