Petition for DEL/GND test answers marked incorrect

[Brian Clark]

Question: A pilot has filed the route KSFO PORTE3.AVE.SADDE6 KLAX. He has filed for FL240. What is wrong?
Correct Answer: FL240 is an invalid altitude for that route of flight as it violates the NEODD SWEVEN rule
User's Answer: Nothing is wrong - This is a acceptable altitude

According to LOA-ZLA 4.1.b

b. Either Center may assign inappropriate altitude for direction of flight (IADOF) provided specific verbal approval is obtained from the receiving Center prior to handoff.

Nothing should be wrong. As DEL I'm an authoritative extension of CTR and, assuming that non-standard altitudes are previously agreed upon and I'm aware of such (which is just as valid as assuming the opposite), non-standard altitudes are allowed.


Question: You are working SJC_GND. A pilot is requesting to depart runway 12R from SJC during normal operations. What should you do?
Correct Answer: Advise him of the active runway plan - and that the rwy is not normally available. If the pilot insists for safety reasons - advise the pilot of possible delay and comply with the request when traffic permits
User's Answer: Tell him he cannot use that runway and to expect another

According to SOP-50 5.n.2

SJC shall comply with the runway use plan as set by SFO_TWR. When SFO_TWR is in "Normal Ops / West Flow" SJC shall use runways 30L/R and 29. When SFO_TWR is in "East Ops", SJC shall use runways 12L/R and 11. If local winds make compliance with this instruction unsafe, SJC_TWR will contact SFO_TWR and ask SFO_TWR to change its configuration to match SJC. If SFO_TWR is unable, SJC_TWR may deviate from this procedure, but must inform all Norcal TRACON sectors and OAK CTR positions of this condition.

Combined with FAA 711065T 1-2-1.a

“Shall” or “must” means a procedure is mandatory.

Runway 30L/R use is mandatory by TWR so any attempt by GND to taxi an aircraft to 12L/R is going to be a time waste at best.


Question: You have a Boeing 767 at SFO requesting taxi instructions during Normal Operations. What runway should you taxi him to?
Correct Answer: 28L/1R
User's Answer: 1L/10R

I want to taxi this 767 to 1L. The only answer choice which included 1L is the one I chose. I do not want to taxi this aircraft to 1R since it requires crossing 1L. (Why cross a runway if you don't have to?)


Question: Winds are 100 at 13 at KSFO. A DC9 files with the route KSFO.DUMB6.OSI.WAGES.EHF.KBUR. You should...
Correct Answer: Ask the pilot if he can accept the PORTE3 DP, AVE transition, then direct.
User's Answer: Clear him via that route, as the DUMB6 is an East-Flow DP.

What's wrong with DUMB6? Surely SFO is in east ops since normal ops/west ops would have strong tailwinds for runways 28L/R.


Question: (Refer to the SFO Airport Diagram) A pilot at their gate at Boarding Area C requests to pushback onto taxiway Alpha. Runway 1L/R are the active departure runways. The correct response is
Correct Answer: Push onto Alpha tail Northeast. Advise ready for taxi.
User's Answer: You are not allowed to pushback onto a taxiway sir.

Ground controllers at ZOA ARTCC are expressly forbidden from issuing any engine start, pushback, or similar non-movement area clearances. I wish I could find the document to prove it, but I read it today. I could advise "at your discretion" but that's not an option given by the question.


Question: After issuing an IFR clearance, proper phraseology for an aircraft not reporting in with the ATIS at San Francisco Intl Airport, would be...
Correct Answer: AAL1028, readback correct. Altimeter 30.21. Expect runway 1L for departure. Advise ready for taxi.
User's Answer: AAL1028, readback correct. Report ready for taxi.

EDIT: It took me a lot of scrounging to find the source of information that leads to the indicated correct answer. Be aware that it is absolutely NOT clear what document sources are considered necessary for training knowledge, which document sources are to be disregarded, which are primary, secondary, etc., and lastly which sources supercede others.

Should I use the VATUSA training material? Is the LOA ARTCC Wiki enough? Is there information in the FAA 7110.65 document that will actually steer me wrong? Should I disregard all information available at other ARTCCs?

I've been primarily using the VATUSA site for my general DEL training information (same domain as the exam, right?) and been led quite astray. Somewhere there should have been some bold red all-capital letters saying "ZOA ARTCC TRAINING INFORMATION IS THE PRIMARY SOURCE."

As a small side note "Ops" and "Flow" would be best to collapse to a standard keyword. The training/ SOP documents use them absolutely interchangeably and it's needlessly confusing.

I would expect 3 question gradings (4 if the DUMB6 departure question is valid) to at least be considered for a revised score.

[Michael Mund-Hoym]

Brian, first of all, welcome to ZOA and a great community of controllers. Thank you for voicing your concerns. Let me try and give a little more info about each question-answer pair.

1. When we give ATC clearances the goal is to have an efficient and preferred route to the destination airport along with an altitude appropriate for direction of flight. If you clear aircraft in accordance with these rules, coordination with other controllers can be held to an absolute minimum and increase your efficiency as controller. You would have to get approval for each aircraft flying at an incorrect altitude for direction of flight from both our Center controller and later on further coordination would be required, which in most cases is simply of no good to anyone. IAFDOF at my best knowledge could temporarily be used for separation requirements or to meet certain MVAs (minimum vectoring altitudes). IAFDOF is not to be used on a frequent basis.

2. I had this scenario yesterday. According to the winds we had, the bay was running in normal ops, hence SJC would be using runways 29/30L/30R. SJC had a light breeze from the east at only a few knots. A pilot requested runway 12L for departure. While this scenario is really rare, you found the correct SOP50 stating you may deviate from what ops the bay is in, as long as it is coordinated with NorCal approach and Oakland Center (and SJC Tower if you are workig SJC DEL/GND).

3. This question clearly states "Normal Operations". SOP50 indicates normal ops as being runways 1L/R used for departures, 28L/R used for arrivals. Aircraft unable to accept 1L or 1R for departure may be assigned 28L or 28R. Runways 10L and 10R are used for east ops departures. You can avoid having aircraft cross 1L on their way to 1R by assigning a taxiroute to runway 1R via A, or A, A1. Those run in front of runway 1L.

4. In SOP52 you will find preferred routings between ZOA airports and large airports within our neigboring ARTCCs. One column shows SFO in normal/west ops, the other column shows SFO in east/south ops both with the respective preferred route. While you are correct that the DUMB6 departure is an east ops departure and replaces the SFO8 and SHOR1 departures used in normal ops, it does not have transitions to one of the required fixes (AVE or FLW) for the flight to Burbank. The LAX CTR controller is expecting Burbank arrivals to come in via AVE or FLW. Anything else, again, requires unnecessary coordination.

5. In general you are right, we dont issue startup and pushback clearances. However, if the pilot wants to push back from a non movement area (such as the ramp) onto a movement area (such as a taxiway), prior permission from the ground controller is required.

6. This goes straight to the 7110.65 3-9-1 Departure information. The information that has to be provided to the pilot is runway in use, surface wind and altimeter setting. Since all this information is contained in the ATIS, you wouldnt have to issue it if the pilot reports having the correct ATIS letter, or in pilot language says s/he "has the numbers". Since VATSIM pilots oftentimes dont state they have the ATIS information, it has to be provided to them.

I hope this allows you to understand a bit better what troubled you a bit. I will speak to our Training Administrator regarding your exam score.

Wishing you alot of fun and enjoyment in your ZOA training!

[Chris Virgilio]

Hi Brian,

I'd also like to welcome you to ZOA. I have a few tidbits to throw in also.

1. IAFDOF isn't the end of the world. Dr Mike Fries can answer the delivery portion more accurately than I can, but I know that as a Center controller, we are legally not allowed to allow an aircraft to leave our sector (that's right, sector) IAFDOF without verbally coordinating it with the next sector. We can assign that altitude any time we want, you're correct, but they have to be fixed before they leave or be verbally coordinated (APREQ'ed).

2. KSJC is allowed to do their own thing, and in real life it is quite common (almost daily now) for KSJC to arrive/depart rwys 12L/R in the mornings. The great part is it doesn't affect the flow of traffic in to KSFO/KOAK at all. So KSJC does it's own thing, as is provided for in SOP50.

Regarding the word "ops vs. flow" bit. Actually in real life we don't use either of these words. We refer to it as "West Plan" or "Southeast Plan".

Finally, Brian, I want to mention that you may not be starting off on the right foot with the members of ZOA by blasting a clearance delivery exam on your first post. While you bring up some good topics of discussion, the manner in which you assume to petition for a corrected score, this all just seems a bit inappropriate.

[Mike Fries]

I have no problem with your petition. Maybe some questions can be looked at for revision. I'll just say in my experience as real world clearance I've never been trained to look for and amend IAFDOF. It will be taken care of airborne if a problem. Also maybe we should look at the SJC runway use plan for revision.

[Brian Clark]

Thank you for your kind and detailed replies.

#1 Reading the question I narrowed down the choices to "Problem is it isn't the right altitude" and "No problem, standard altitudes aren't 100% necessary due to the LOA with ZLA." I knew this was either a straightforward question using the basic private pilot ground school altitude rule or it was a test to see how well I read and understood various SOPs and LOAs. I figured I'd bet on the horse that showed more in-depth knowledge.

I don't have experience (and it's not mentioned, as far as I can tell) exactly what authority and coordination is considered "assumed." The toolset, full responsibilities and obligations, etc of each of the ATC positions is not clear to me. Can DEL call up CTR to get something approved? Can GND approve a taxi that TWR or DEP can't work with? I have no idea.

#2 "you found the correct SOP50 stating you may deviate from what ops the bay is in, as long as it is coordinated with NorCal approach and Oakland Center (and SJC Tower if you are workig SJC DEL/GND)."

Thing is... TWR can deviate from bay ops template, but I'm GND. Changing SJC from normal ops to east ops was never in my mind. SJC is in normal ops and someone taking off 12L doesn't change that fact (or does it?) The question gave options of coordinating with APP or simply "getting back to them, standby" but never coordinating with TWR itself. Since tower is the authority on landing and departing runway selection at their airport, and no question involved getting permission from TWR... I chose unable. Is this faulty thinking?

#4 Ahhhhh, required fix AVE (or FLW) for KBUR as mentioned in both the SOP-52 and LOA-KZLA. I figured there was some "black sheep" in (not in) the flight plan but I hope that "innocent until proven guilty" is an appreciated mindset when it comes to clearing flight plans. I wouldn't want to amend someone's allowable plan just because it isn't 100% preferred. Naturally not amending it in this case would not be correct.

#5 Naturally you want to control the movement areas but I still disagree with the pushback phraseology. GND could easily give permission to occupy that taxiway area without ever using the word "pushback." "Taxi onto Bravo approved" for example. Using the word "pushback" over the radio on VATSIM suggests the idea that ATC can/should be contacted for engine start or (ramp area) pushback clearances, right?

#6 Yeah, I found the information in the ZOA training materials when I had been using the VATUSA training materials (which does not have this information.) Someone at VATUSA might want to audit their materials versus their (our?) PTS just to make sure all the required knowledge is in the materials. It would be a shame for any controller to fail that question because they were at an ARTCC without its own materials.

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Pardon my phrasing. "Petition" might not be the best word. I simply wanted to make sure that my test answers were marked fairly and that I understood exactly why the answers were the ones they were. Often tests are written before changes in the textbook materials which can cause reasonable questions to become out of date. The process I undertake for a test question is:

1. Read the training materials once cover to cover
2. Read the test question
3. Answer the question if confident or re-read materials until the answer is certain
4. Submit the test question
5. Determine what answers were marked incorrect and find out why
6. If all attempts to understand why the correct answer was correct and the marked answer was incorrect fail, bring it to the examiner's attention explaining why I marked the way I did
7. Listen to explanation
8. Hard liquor

I hope it's reasonable. I'm unashamed about being the "squeaky wheel" though as I'd prefer to be a bit of a pest than to let potential for learning, fixes, etc. pass by.

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Just out of curiosity, what is the "complete and authoritative" body (for testing) of information for future reference? Is the ZOA training wiki and its links sufficient? Should I continue to use VATUSA but only supplementary?

[Chris Virgilio]

The thing to keep in mind is that the tower team is made up of clearance delivery, ground control, and local control. There are other positions too that are not present on the VATSIM network, but those aren't important. The fact that these positions are supposed to work as a team is important. In real life these people all stand right next to each other and coordinate all the time. There are Standard Operating Procedures set forth as well as Letters of Agreement that establish what the expected flow of traffic from one position to the next, and from one facility to the next will be. Is this the end all, say all of what must happen? No way. Coordination occurs when something non-standard or unexpected is encountered. If something different is going to happen, one controller must let the next controller know, and get their approval, so that the next controller can ensure that the operation fits in to the safe and efficient flow of traffic. SOPs and LOAs are established merely to cut down on the coordination required, saving time and creating some ground rules. Even then, ATC is less of a "by the book" occupation and more of an art. It requires creativity, flexibility, and patience.

[Brian Clark]

After reviewing some training materials coordination and guidelines for what instructions to give are likely the areas that I have the least knowledge. The boundaries of the "legal box" I'm free to exercise creativity within is somewhat vague to me. Also, to which other ATC facilities allowed, required, and typical coordination efforts should I be aware of?

I suspected that TWR coordination might be possible for example but I don't know it in the sense that I've been told. Is it required? Is it allowed? What format would that coordination take? Do I have to hold/un-hold landing permission to TWR as GND based on obstructions to possible post-landing taxiways?

[David Carman]

Brian, thank you for asking question, you seem very intelligent and like you really want to understand this stuff. I'd love to chat with you on teamspeak and maybe do a training session or two and we can work out a lot of the questions then. I'm in teamspeak right now, or shoot me an IM on AIM or skype, I think both of those are in my forum profile. Or g-talk, my e-mails in the crew roster.

[Mike Fries]

As ground you have the duty to protect runway exits for TWR

[Brian Clark]

I think this topic has served it's usefulness. Thank you all for your engaging assistance. If I get some free time before a trip upcoming I'll contact David via AIM or TS3. If not then, then sometime after the 19th when I return. I'll also add my AIM SN to my profile for any/all to freely message.